In Chapter 5 of the Republic Socrates proposes that his ideal society propagate a "noble lie." Such a lie falsely attributes a precious metal to the constitution of citizens to justify their placement in a given class, thus avoiding any resentment about one's social status.
Are such "noble lies" or myths ever justified? Even if they are the only or best way to preserve some social good (like stability or peace among the classes)? Will such lies eventually be discovered? Are there any such lies propagated today?
I believe that there the noble lie is a necessary to keep peace in a community. If the classes don’t believe that they are meant to be the class they are then they will always strive to overthrow the higher class leading to revolutions and violence. The noble lie serves as a mechanism of peace. Without the noble lie not only would the lower classes rebel but members of the upper class would attempt to exploit the unrest of the lower class. Members of the auxiliary would use the anger of the lower class and rally them against the guardians in order to displace the guardians leaving the auxiliary as the supreme power. The noble lie gives people an answer to why they must live the life they have been given.
ReplyDeleteSo now that we have established the necessity of the noble lie we must explore whether it is just. On the surface it appears to be a contradiction, because Socrates says that moral people must be honest, but earlier he states that the “rulers of our community… can lie for the good of the community, when either an external or an internal threat makes it necessary,” (389b). Since we have established that the noble lie is necessary to retain internal peace it follows that it is just for the leaders of communities to tell their citizens the noble lie.
The noble lie serves the same purpose and is similar to the concept of the American Dream. For years leaders have told the American people that they can achieve wealth and happiness if they only work hard. The rags to riches tale has permeated American society and gives hope to the poor, however this concept is a lie. Maybe one in awhile someone gets lucky but often people strive to make ends meat in the capitalist system. Not everyone starts out on an even playing field. The rich have a clear advantage over the poor and classism is the root of many problems, yet leaders still profess this lie in order to instill faith in the American system.
When Socrates proposes this lie, he is assuming that keeping people in the classes they are in is for the best. It is doubtful that anyone will ever be able to have a system that perfectly assigns people to the classes they are most fitting in. Mistakes will be made, and the noble lie ensures that those mistakes are permanent, thus amplifying the damage done.
ReplyDeleteSuch a lie also gives too much power to the government. I really see no difference between this lie and The Chinese Government paying Google to cover up the fact that they massacred their own citizens. Both are done to keep social order. The ideal community presented in "The Republic" may not do anything as drastic as what China did, but, when such a lie is used, there is nothing to stop leaders from abusing power, provided the lie is effective.
I don't think this lie can be kept a secret forever. A ruler could easily say one wrong thing, or someone could be in the wrong place by accident and overhear a conversation revealing the truth. When it is discovered, violent social unrest is guaranteed, as the public will resent the government for lying to them. On the other hand, violence is not guaranteed without the noble lie. In the past, communities with such a class system have existed, and these communities have disappeared because of foreign invaders, not because of internal rebellion. And even with the noble lie, peace is not 100% guaranteed. If the lower classes feel they do not have what they deserve, such a lie would not be enough to prevent a rebellion. Ultimately, the risks of such a lie outweigh the gains.
While Socractes' concept of the Noble Lie may seem like a contradiction that endangers his entire of the perfect community, it is a necessary evil for what it accomplishes. Socrates makes the claim in "The Republic" that the gods are entirely perfect. This perfection entails their inability to lie, cause unnecessary harm to others, or change form. Socrates also says that it should be the pursuit of the people to reach this state of perfection. However, because the people are not gods, they cannot ever be perfect. It is for this reason that Socrates hypothesizes the ideal community. Because the community needs people with more power than others, the Noble Lie is necessary to maintain the order, even though lying should not be done in the society. In a way, this contradiction may be justifiable on the grounds that people are not perfect, so performing one immoral act in order to ensure the wellbeing of the community as a whole may be justified. Perhaps the real life equivalent of the Noble Lie is the concept of the American Dream, the idea that anyone can thrive in the United States. While it is not entirely impossible for those who are less economically sound than others to succeed financially, it is much harder than it is for the wealthy. It is for this reason that the idea of the American Dream may be considered a Noble Lie.
ReplyDeleteIf the lie does, as Plato states, ensure peace in the community and avoids resentment about the social classes, I believe the lie is justified. Peace is more important in a community than acting honestly in one instance. However, this assumes the lie is never doubted, which I believe will eventually happen.
ReplyDeleteIt is almost impossible to accurately determine the correct class a child should be placed in. Therefore, there will inevitably be errors. A person who isn’t qualified may end up being a guardian, while a more qualified person may end up being a worker. When the community sees a guardian not performing as well as they expect a guardian to do and a worker performing better than average, they may begin to doubt the noble lie. This one seed of doubt will be cataclysmic. Every person deemed to be silver, copper, or iron would love to believe they had been incorrectly categorized, and would support the idea that the noble lie is flawed. Because the amount of people who are silver, copper, or iron outnumber those deemed gold, the noble lie would be denounced and abandoned. Therefore, the noble will ultimately fail, and because it does not ensure peace, it is not justified.
I believe there are noble lies in today’s society. One example is the American Dream. We are taught to believe that with hard work we can eventually achieve our desires. It’s easy to see why this lie is beneficial to a community like the noble lie. It encourages the working class to be complacent and continue working. They won’t rebel against the upper classes, ensuring peace and a strong economy. However, the American Dream is flawed. It much more difficult for a poor, urban student to get into a selective college, for example, even if he or she works and excels in their school. The curriculum is not as challenging, and the student would not have the money to pay for help with the SAT and ACT as many wealthier kids would. Therefore, their hard work may simply not be enough.
The Noble Lie is necessary in the community for there not to be chaos. Even though this may seem like a contradiction, it is justified. In Chapter 5 of PLato's "The Republic", Socrates talks about how the Gods are perfect and how every person should try and reach the staus of perfect, but this is not possible because normal people are not Gods meaning that they can not be perfect. This one little showing of immorality is justified only for the simple reason that he is doing it for the better good of the community. Socrates realizes that he is contradicting himself but he believes that he must do it for the community to thrive and stay alive, otherwise the community would fall apart. For him the lie is justified becasue he is doing it for the better good of the community.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion if a noble lie is something that will keep a community together than it is definitely justified. While i do believe this I also believe that a community should want to feel like a communtiy and if that isn't the case then there is nothing that a noble lie will do to stop that. I believe that the lie would have to be one that seems normal in the eyes of the people that it's being told to and not out of the ordinary in any way. I find this whole concept of a noble lie very interesting because it makes me think of what we call in modern day terms little white lies and whether or not those are good or bad. people always ask the question if a little white lie makes someone feel better than shouldn't it be okay? i think thats just like asking if a noble lie makes a community function then shouldn't it be okay? I belive that it is in fact okay. However, there is always that risk of the person being lied to finding out that they were lied to. I won't say that it always happens but i believe that it does more times than not.
ReplyDeleteWhat i really find interesting about this whole concept is that Plato always talks about "the good" and how the mind always has to be in that good state but he's bringing up lying. Lying is never a word that is naturally associated with anything good so in a way Plato contradicts himself. Yes he says that the noble lie is order to keep peace inside a community but with the various arguments that Plato makes one would think that peace would already be present. A leader has to be a philosopher because philosophers are the ones with true knowledge and wisdom which should mean that they shouldn't have to lie to keep order over their followers.
All in all i still keep my view that a noble lie is justified if it is in fact the only way in which peace will present inside a community.
If we are to accept the idea of a noble lie being justified in a society, we must first agree with Plato that the beneficial consequences of such an arrangement outweigh the negative costs. The idea that one is born into a “metal” and can never move out of that class would indeed create order because the clearly defined class systems would create education and job opportunities that are tailored the specific metals. Such an arrangement would in general breed a strict and elitist society, but the community would be filled with people who know their place and do the tasks assigned to their metal without complaint. However, I do not agree with Plato that such a society is ever justified. It is impossible to predict the success of a child based on its birth and therefore impossible to create a working and moral society on such assumptions. I think that a more fitting adjective to this situation than Plato’s “peaceful” is “brainwashed.” I cannot agree that forcing a person to believe that they are worse or better than another because of their rank is necessary to create a utopia.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is impossible to uphold an untruth for eternity. It only takes one individual to identify and challenge the lie for the whole system to unravel. Inevitably, this will happen to the community and it will cease to be Plato’s idea of a perfect society.
Modern relatives to the noble lie are apparent in this world even today, most notably in India’s caste system but also in most conservative cultures that have spaces between the classes. While the caste system is closely related with Plato’s idea of some people being better than others by birth, I think that most cultures rely on the idea that money makes people rise in society. While most people in high society are rich, that doesn’t make them good people or worthy of their status. Indeed, a lot of rich people used immoral means to become wealthy. Any society of rank is telling a noble lie. How can we delude ourselves into believing that this lie is noble?
While a noble lie may be justified in Plato's hypothetical society, in reality, such lies are never justified and will never work. People inherently always want to improve their economic and social statuses in a society, and any lie told to keep them from doing so will eventually be exposed as a lie.
ReplyDeleteWe firmly believe today that everyone is an individual of value. The stories of people who manage to move past their perceived inabilities or disabilities to achieve great things are always being propagated through the media, demonstrating that all have the ability to improve and succeed and that all have the right to an equal opportunity to exercise those abilities. Science increasingly reveals the power of the brain to adapt, improve and make connections, supporting nurture rather than nature view of human abilities. A set class system, therefore, is unjust; it takes away this right of opportunity and advancement. The class system that Plato sets up, therefore, is flawed and definitely not an example of the perfect society. He advocates an extremely inflexible structure based on natural ability. Even if the noble lie could be used to keep order in Plato’s society, and may in fact be the best and only way to do so, the lie can never be used to attain any kind of social “good,” since an inflexible class system always takes away the right of equal opportunity from individuals in the lower classes.
The noble lie will always eventually be discovered. Most of the class systems of the monarchies and class-based societies in today’s world, for example, have disintegrated into democracies or hold other values to be higher priority. In China, for example, the rising and very wealthy middle class has high social status. India is an example of a country in which the class system (in this case, the caste system) still holds sway (one could possibly call it the product of a “noble lie”); in The White Tiger by Aravind Adiga, however, the author describes a very enterprising member of the lower class who managed to make his way up into the wealthy middle class after losing patience with the cage of the social system. I think this illustrates the trend towards which the world is always moving – towards a system freer and freer of the unfair restrictions of classes.